There’s too much emotion on this topic to be able to have a serious and honest conversation about it (either/both ways).
Like with everything else that has to do with human beings, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
And yeah, I know, “Centrist, kill him!!!1!!”. But seriously, neither extreme has it 100% right.
Fix the supply of available new homes to purchase so that the costs come down, and stop just sitting on the couch bitching and moaning and go earn the money to buy the houses at the cheaper prices (and while you’re off the couch, contact your elected reps and tell them to fix the housing shortage).
It’s the earning enough money part that’s difficult. We’re not getting paid commensurate to our value because what used to be skimmed off the top of the value we produce is now being gouged out in big, ragged chunks.
–Privileged bitching alert–
I have three science degrees, ending in MSc, and my wife has two business degrees ending in BBA. They’re all functional, i.e., no one fucked up and went for a different field. We have over $100k in student debt between us. We’re highly educated professionals in senior positions in our respective fields. We also live in a high cost of living area.
When my parents were our ages, neither had a degree and, accordingly, no student debt. My father neither graduated from high school nor had a GED. He actually worked in the same field as me, in a position several levels junior to where I’m at now. My mother worked in a field shockingly similar to my wife’s, also junior to where my wife is now. They lived in an extremely low cost of living area. Adjusted for inflation, they made approximately $35k more a year than we do now and had vastly lower living expenses.
We can’t keep up when wages are depressed and costs are inflated. If my wife and I had the same conditions as our parents, we’d be absolutely killing it financially. Instead, despite being financially responsible, we’re currently debating retiring on time or having a kid. We can’t have both. Yay.
The kicker is there’s absolutely no good reason we shouldn’t have economic conditions at least similar to my parent’s generation at this stage in our lives. We just make less money, despite actually creating more value per hour, because business owners, shareholders, and the c suite are making more than ever and it’s collectively bleeding us dry.
P.s. this comment helped me realize my wife and I have professionally turned into my parents. Gross!
I know it’s not a comfortable thought, and it’d be nice if we didn’t have to, but you considered moving to a lower cost of living area (whether its an hour from your current job, if the +2 hours daily makes it worthwhile) or finding a job in a state with lower cost of living where your skills are in demand?
If you make 100k/yr and 90% of your income goes to necessities, then it makes fiscal sense to take a paycut to 70k/yr when your necessities only take 40℅ of your income.
It’s nice to live in nice places, and moving and leaving your family/friends behind is a horrible thing to have to do, but it doesn’t have to be forever and this is a matter of survival.
It’s the earning enough money part that’s difficult. We’re not getting paid commensurate to our value because what used to be skimmed off the top of the value we produce is now being gouged out in big, ragged chunks.
I agree, totally. If the price of goods don’t go down, then the incomes earned must go up. But we (assuming Americans for this comment) live in a society where its ok for a company to “charge whatever the market will bear”, they have no insentives to ‘take care’ of their fellow citizens. So then individuals have to fight harder/smarter for more income.
The other side of that equation is lower the costs of goods, which in this case is housing. There’s currently a weird conjunction of shortage of housing and real estate corporations buying up all available housing to rent that is causing the pricing woes. The latter reminds me of how there was a shortage of computer GPUs for gamers to purchase at a reasonable price, in the recent past, and the market did not correct (much) because it didn’t have to, no competition pressure.
When I mention contacting your elected representative, its for things like to talk to them about lowering the price of goods by enacting laws to prevent monopolistic behavior and promote competition. Right now those reps are not doing that because they are getting paid NOT to do that by the companies. Who you elect to office really does matter in the long run, and even moreso your active participation in the process.
The kicker is there’s absolutely no good reason we shouldn’t have economic conditions at least similar to my parent’s generation at this stage in our lives.
Well, you’re right, and you’re wrong at the same time.
You are right that if Capitialism was working optimally the market would be saturated with product and competition would keep pricing down. But we don’t have that, since we rely on goverment to regulate ‘bad behavior’ Capitalism, and they are not doing that right now.
But at the same time you’re wrong, as Capitalism is not a guarantee, its a variance, its random(ish), and there are no guarantees that the good market that exists today will exist thirty years from now. Its one of the reasons that IMO Capitalism kind of sucks (as practiced today), for the welfare and happiness of all human beings.
–Privileged bitching alert–
My personal story was from being a high-school dropout who had to go find work, to being a very poor “rich” homeowner person today. I lived very frugally at first (really cut down on having meals delivered to you, etc. etc.), and over time my money ‘snowballed’ (there really is truth to that strategy). So I know its possible to overcome any market situation, but its definately not easy, and it takes a toll on you, both body and spirit.
P.s. this comment helped me realize my wife and I have professionally turned into my parents. Gross!
The other day I was visting my 30’s son, and he was in the kitchen yelling at his fiance for where some cooking ingredient was (it wasn’t angry yelling, just for volume, as she was at the other side of the house). And then he stops, turns his head away from the kitchen pantry cabinet to look squarely at me sitting on the couch nearby, and says the exact same thing you said, “I’ve turned into my parents.” I won’t lie, I laughed my ass off, and felt good inside a little bit, in a misery loves company ironic comedic parental revenge sort of way. “Its the ‘Circle of Life’, bay-bbeeee!”. We both laughed.
Bottom line, you just gotta surround yourself with loved ones and ride out the bad storms, and seek happiness where you can, day-by-day. And learn to fish, and not just ask to be given fish all the time (unless you’re really in trouble). Oh, and try to pay things forward. When things are better for your neighbors, they tend to end up being better for you too.
Funny how hot takes are often the nuanced, grounded in reality takes. I guess that’s what makes them spicy… people like things that confirm their beliefs and insecurities, and the truth is one of the most disturbing things for a lot of people to hear.
People’s default setting is to stay in their bubbles, yes. But I’m hoping that we can actually get people to talk through the issue in an honest non-emotional way, and see if any resolution could be had, vs. what we get now, the repeated daily posts of raw emotion to enhance conflict and prevent good discussion.
If you’re not aware of it, LessWrong is a good forum for enhancing your knowledge via discussion in a rational way. Unfortunately the majority don’t want logical discussion, as there’s no direct benefit to them in the short-term and it’s much harder to think that way and you’ll be excluded from your ingroup because you’re going against the grain.
You can lead a horse to water, you can’t make them think deeply about ‘boring’ things.
You can lead a horse to water, you can’t make them think deeply about ‘boring’ things.
You might be right. But at the end of the day, when everything goes to shit, at the very least I can honestly look into the mirror and like what is looking back, someone who tried to make things better. /shrug
You might be right. But at the end of the day, when everything goes to shit, at the very least I can honestly look into the mirror and like what is looking back, someone who tried to make things better.
That’s a good point. I need to stop being so jaded, it never leads to anything positive.
But it is hard, having fought time and time again to get a single person to halfway see the reason. I can only hope that a seed has been planted when I do, and eventually it will grow.
That’s a good point. I need to stop being so jaded, it never leads to anything positive.
For sure its not easy, especially when there are those with a personal interest to have anarchy via psyops/propaganda, but its something we all really need to strive for.
But it is hard, having fought time and time again to get a single person to halfway see the reason. I can only hope that a seed has been planted when I do, and eventually it will grow.
That’s all we can do really. That, and participate, again for no other reason than for self-respect. Any extra good that comes out of that is just a bonus.
So you’ve always been a right-winger. No surprises here.
Not that there’s anything wrong with being a centrist,
Yes, there is. Lots. If you are “in-between” two right-wing ideology you are still a right-winger - ie, an apologist for and/or functionary of powerful elites.
So you’ve always been a right-winger. No surprises here.
I guarantee you that a 70’s/80’s right-winger would not consider a 70’s/80’s liberal a right-winger.
Personally I’m still pissed off at Reagan for calling ketchup a food group.
Not that there’s anything wrong with being a centrist,
Yes, there is. Lots. If you are “in-between” two right-wing ideology you are still a right-winger - ie, an apologist for and/or functionary of powerful elites.
That’s a very narrow and unwise way to see the reality of things, but again, you do you. But I got to warn you, raw rage won’t fix things, it just destroy things.
Centrists are citizens too, and your blind anger can’t magically make them disappear. We need consensus on things that all citizens can agree to, and abide by.
Do you always defer your opinion to right-wingers? What a “centrist” thing to do - and I wish I was being sarcastic.
That’s a very narrow and unwise way
Considering that you, up until now, didn’t understand how deeply your world-view has been dictated by right-wing ideology, perhaps it’s best that you don’t throw words such as “narrow” and “unwise” around too much, okay?
But I got to warn you, raw rage won’t fix things,
Neither does appeasement - no matter how you justify it.
Centrists are citizens too,
So are serial rapists and parasite billionaires. What’s your point?
We need consensus
No thanks… I’m not comfortable with slavery and genocide - no matter how you justify it.
Hot take incoming…
Another daily “Eat the Rich” post.
There’s too much emotion on this topic to be able to have a serious and honest conversation about it (either/both ways).
Like with everything else that has to do with human beings, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
And yeah, I know, “Centrist, kill him!!!1!!”. But seriously, neither extreme has it 100% right.
Fix the supply of available new homes to purchase so that the costs come down, and stop just sitting on the couch bitching and moaning and go earn the money to buy the houses at the cheaper prices (and while you’re off the couch, contact your elected reps and tell them to fix the housing shortage).
It’s the earning enough money part that’s difficult. We’re not getting paid commensurate to our value because what used to be skimmed off the top of the value we produce is now being gouged out in big, ragged chunks.
–Privileged bitching alert–
I have three science degrees, ending in MSc, and my wife has two business degrees ending in BBA. They’re all functional, i.e., no one fucked up and went for a different field. We have over $100k in student debt between us. We’re highly educated professionals in senior positions in our respective fields. We also live in a high cost of living area.
When my parents were our ages, neither had a degree and, accordingly, no student debt. My father neither graduated from high school nor had a GED. He actually worked in the same field as me, in a position several levels junior to where I’m at now. My mother worked in a field shockingly similar to my wife’s, also junior to where my wife is now. They lived in an extremely low cost of living area. Adjusted for inflation, they made approximately $35k more a year than we do now and had vastly lower living expenses.
We can’t keep up when wages are depressed and costs are inflated. If my wife and I had the same conditions as our parents, we’d be absolutely killing it financially. Instead, despite being financially responsible, we’re currently debating retiring on time or having a kid. We can’t have both. Yay.
The kicker is there’s absolutely no good reason we shouldn’t have economic conditions at least similar to my parent’s generation at this stage in our lives. We just make less money, despite actually creating more value per hour, because business owners, shareholders, and the c suite are making more than ever and it’s collectively bleeding us dry.
P.s. this comment helped me realize my wife and I have professionally turned into my parents. Gross!
I know it’s not a comfortable thought, and it’d be nice if we didn’t have to, but you considered moving to a lower cost of living area (whether its an hour from your current job, if the +2 hours daily makes it worthwhile) or finding a job in a state with lower cost of living where your skills are in demand?
If you make 100k/yr and 90% of your income goes to necessities, then it makes fiscal sense to take a paycut to 70k/yr when your necessities only take 40℅ of your income.
It’s nice to live in nice places, and moving and leaving your family/friends behind is a horrible thing to have to do, but it doesn’t have to be forever and this is a matter of survival.
A good read, your comment was. /yoda
I agree, totally. If the price of goods don’t go down, then the incomes earned must go up. But we (assuming Americans for this comment) live in a society where its ok for a company to “charge whatever the market will bear”, they have no insentives to ‘take care’ of their fellow citizens. So then individuals have to fight harder/smarter for more income.
The other side of that equation is lower the costs of goods, which in this case is housing. There’s currently a weird conjunction of shortage of housing and real estate corporations buying up all available housing to rent that is causing the pricing woes. The latter reminds me of how there was a shortage of computer GPUs for gamers to purchase at a reasonable price, in the recent past, and the market did not correct (much) because it didn’t have to, no competition pressure.
When I mention contacting your elected representative, its for things like to talk to them about lowering the price of goods by enacting laws to prevent monopolistic behavior and promote competition. Right now those reps are not doing that because they are getting paid NOT to do that by the companies. Who you elect to office really does matter in the long run, and even moreso your active participation in the process.
Well, you’re right, and you’re wrong at the same time.
You are right that if Capitialism was working optimally the market would be saturated with product and competition would keep pricing down. But we don’t have that, since we rely on goverment to regulate ‘bad behavior’ Capitalism, and they are not doing that right now.
But at the same time you’re wrong, as Capitalism is not a guarantee, its a variance, its random(ish), and there are no guarantees that the good market that exists today will exist thirty years from now. Its one of the reasons that IMO Capitalism kind of sucks (as practiced today), for the welfare and happiness of all human beings.
My personal story was from being a high-school dropout who had to go find work, to being a very poor “rich” homeowner person today. I lived very frugally at first (really cut down on having meals delivered to you, etc. etc.), and over time my money ‘snowballed’ (there really is truth to that strategy). So I know its possible to overcome any market situation, but its definately not easy, and it takes a toll on you, both body and spirit.
The other day I was visting my 30’s son, and he was in the kitchen yelling at his fiance for where some cooking ingredient was (it wasn’t angry yelling, just for volume, as she was at the other side of the house). And then he stops, turns his head away from the kitchen pantry cabinet to look squarely at me sitting on the couch nearby, and says the exact same thing you said, “I’ve turned into my parents.” I won’t lie, I laughed my ass off, and felt good inside a little bit, in a misery loves company ironic comedic parental revenge sort of way. “Its the ‘Circle of Life’, bay-bbeeee!”. We both laughed.
Bottom line, you just gotta surround yourself with loved ones and ride out the bad storms, and seek happiness where you can, day-by-day. And learn to fish, and not just ask to be given fish all the time (unless you’re really in trouble). Oh, and try to pay things forward. When things are better for your neighbors, they tend to end up being better for you too.
Thank you for coming to my TEDTalk.
Funny how hot takes are often the nuanced, grounded in reality takes. I guess that’s what makes them spicy… people like things that confirm their beliefs and insecurities, and the truth is one of the most disturbing things for a lot of people to hear.
People’s default setting is to stay in their bubbles, yes. But I’m hoping that we can actually get people to talk through the issue in an honest non-emotional way, and see if any resolution could be had, vs. what we get now, the repeated daily posts of raw emotion to enhance conflict and prevent good discussion.
If you’re not aware of it, LessWrong is a good forum for enhancing your knowledge via discussion in a rational way. Unfortunately the majority don’t want logical discussion, as there’s no direct benefit to them in the short-term and it’s much harder to think that way and you’ll be excluded from your ingroup because you’re going against the grain.
You can lead a horse to water, you can’t make them think deeply about ‘boring’ things.
Thank you. I had not heard of it before, I’ll check it out.
Edit: This was an interesting read.
You might be right. But at the end of the day, when everything goes to shit, at the very least I can honestly look into the mirror and like what is looking back, someone who tried to make things better. /shrug
That’s a favorite of mine, and also a good way to show the honest, rational debate of LessWrong. Has “politics is the mind-killer” been a mind-killer?
GreaterWrong is a nicer way to read LessWrong, IMO.
Thanks for that too.
Damn, you’re really sending me down the rabbit hole. 🤔 😀
That’s a good point. I need to stop being so jaded, it never leads to anything positive.
But it is hard, having fought time and time again to get a single person to halfway see the reason. I can only hope that a seed has been planted when I do, and eventually it will grow.
For sure its not easy, especially when there are those with a personal interest to have anarchy via psyops/propaganda, but its something we all really need to strive for.
That’s all we can do really. That, and participate, again for no other reason than for self-respect. Any extra good that comes out of that is just a bonus.
Oh, look… a “centrist” has shown up to lick boots in public.
Yawn.
Not that there’s anything wrong with being a centrist, but for the record, I’m a 70’s/80’s liberal. But you do you (for real, or for the /s’s).
So you’ve always been a right-winger. No surprises here.
Yes, there is. Lots. If you are “in-between” two right-wing ideology you are still a right-winger - ie, an apologist for and/or functionary of powerful elites.
I guarantee you that a 70’s/80’s right-winger would not consider a 70’s/80’s liberal a right-winger.
Personally I’m still pissed off at Reagan for calling ketchup a food group.
That’s a very narrow and unwise way to see the reality of things, but again, you do you. But I got to warn you, raw rage won’t fix things, it just destroy things.
Centrists are citizens too, and your blind anger can’t magically make them disappear. We need consensus on things that all citizens can agree to, and abide by.
Do you always defer your opinion to right-wingers? What a “centrist” thing to do - and I wish I was being sarcastic.
Considering that you, up until now, didn’t understand how deeply your world-view has been dictated by right-wing ideology, perhaps it’s best that you don’t throw words such as “narrow” and “unwise” around too much, okay?
Neither does appeasement - no matter how you justify it.
So are serial rapists and parasite billionaires. What’s your point?
No thanks… I’m not comfortable with slavery and genocide - no matter how you justify it.
You’re definately on a mission, I’ll give you that. lol
Aren’t we all?
Some moreso than others. 😜