Well, there’s the death knell. Not that it was awesome to begin with, just a stepping stone to get people away from WhatsApp.
Come on Signal, SimpleX, XMPP!
I struggle to understand why XMPP isn’t the de facto messaging standard around the world, I was using it on my first Android phone in 2009, 15 years ago - and was able to seamlessly message people on computers even then. Granted it was hell on battery back then.
It’s straightforward, just works, on every device. Like messengers did years ago.
Easy to login to a new device and instantly start messaging there, with history - just need a current device to verify you.
It’s why I use it. I’d happily use it for friends and family, if I could get them on board. At least it’s not WhatsApp, or something from Google that will die sometime soon.
I’m very lucky that all my friends adopted it - it was one of the few clients that everyone knew of (we are distributed across a lot of countries now; US, UK, France, Brazil mainly).
When I’m forced back to WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger or iMessage I feel like a race driver being told to ride a bicycle. Telegram’s feature set isn’t just the fullest, it’s also revealed in the best UX, where it somehow manages to be fully decked out but not seem bloaty.
Myeah, I agree that they’ve added quite a lot of features. But I do think they’re very well hidden, while remaining discoverable. You can use them if you like; if not they don’t get in the way. YMMV of course.
The plus point is, telegrams client is open source, so you can always make a client which is less bloated (I am sure there are plenty already in the market).
the thing is, Ive been using its crypto features for freelancing and everything went smoothly till date (been using it for 1 year). If you term crypto in general is scam, thats different thing
Personally with XMPP, I think it’s right now because of the lack of decent looking clients (especially on iOS), as well as a lot of the same friction that people have suffered with mastodon.
Also, Signal is built towards a completely different audience that places privacy first over modern messaging features (things like API’s, sending messages through voice assistants, etc.). And for SimpleX, I’m not really sure if sharing a QR code/link with someone else is the best route to go in UX just to message a friend
I really, really appreciate what Signal is doing, and used it for a while, had some success converting people, then they dropped SMS support. That killed any ability to get more converts, and existing users left. I keep it around as a fallback for exactly 2 people.
The UI part of this problem is massive, especially initial setup. It’s why SMS is still primary in the US - people can’t be bothered. It’s so frustrating.
It’s also why I’m looking to host my own, with SimpleX in the lead (for now). Since I’ll manage it, I can mitigate that setup/management pain somewhat (at least for family and close friends). Perhaps that’s the way to get the onto something else. I’m also hoping SimpleX will continue to improve the user experience, especially around multiple devices.
I’m still considering messengers, and it’ll be probably end of the year before I do anything.
I want a Saved Messages chat with a Planned Messages function in a messenger. AFAIK XMPP doesn’t have that. I have it installed and no one I know uses it, but I’m not going to recommend an app that I’m not using because it is insufficient atm.
No XMPP app has that? I’m kind of surprised. I don’t pay a lot of attention to XMPP apps, though I’ve used them here and there.
Biggest use I find for them today is to integrate with tools like MAXXS, which is OK for some automation with mobile devices. Sort of as a backbone comm channel.
I kind of blame myself - as I said, I was using it years ago, but I never evangelized it with friends/family - I’m not a salesman, and my patience is non-existent for people who are stubborn ostriches.
Xmpp was designed for ease of federation and simplicity in implementation. Most messaging apps these days are designed, or at least say they are designed, with privacy first. There probably are plugins for xmpp to allow for e2e encryption and contact list and metadata privacy from server admins but that depends on the server and will probably not be as secure as signal. Just as signal can be federated but it’s complex and not really worth it.
There’s a tradeoff between privacy/security and federation/decentralization and most people value privacy and security more.
Your condescending tone would be fine if you knew what you were talking about.
Xmpp was designed for ease of federation and simplicity in implementation. Most messaging apps these days are designed, or at least say they are designed, with privacy first.
XMPP was designed when encrypting metadata wasn’t considered that important (like with mail), and E2EE for actual messages between users was done via PGP or OTR, so didn’t require any support in the protocol itself.
There probably
You should have read at least something about XMPP first, no? Then you’d know something without “probably”.
are plugins for xmpp to allow for e2e encryption and contact list and metadata privacy from server admins but that depends on the server and will probably not be as secure as signal.
First, honest E2EE for messages themselves never requires server support, that’s the whole point of it. As I’ve said before, for that one can use PGP functionality in most normal clients if that’s enough, one can use OTR, but it’s still not fit for usage with multiple devices simultaneously.
Second, XMPP has OMEMO which is basically everything good about security from Signal, just for XMPP. That’s what we usually use today with XMPP, making your comment wrong.
I struggle to understand why XMPP isn’t the de facto messaging standard around the world,
I suspect that normies subconsciously want all popular messaging services to be insecure.
Humans are often self-confident in a bad way about imagined chaos.
So if a service in insecure, then some day (as that dreaming normie thinks) they might “come to darkweb” and find “a hacker” to help them against something bad. After all, that’s how movies show life.
And if a service is secure, then, that normie thinks, it’s either a scam or at least something that movies have not prepared them for. Same with encrypting mail.
I suspect that normies subconsciously want all popular messaging services to be insecure.
Hahah, you have a point, even if it’s a bit hyperbolic.
And if a service is secure, then, that normie thinks, it’s either a scam or at least something that movies have not prepared them for. Same with encrypting mail.
Hahah, you have a point, even if it’s a bit hyperbolic.
I thought that it was when I was 16. Now I’m sure that’s the truth by the way they react when you don’t even try to persuade them to use something, just evaluate things fairly.
Like Microsoft, EA, facebook, twitter, reddit right? With the amount of corporate death nerds within their bubble have been predicting, there would be no evil corporations. and yet, here we are.
Stop overestimating when your intuition tells you what’s a death knell.
Not that it was awesome to begin with, just a stepping stone to get people away from WhatsApp.
People can use Signal, XMPP, Telegram and also whatsapp depending on their privacy requirements. Modern smartphones are capable like that.
I used to use scp to transfer files off of remote servers 20 years ago. You don’t see me recommending it every time dropbox gets mentioned. Cool down with self-agrandizing bs.
Going public makes companies beholden to stock valuations, not what the users want. Which means Telegram will be even less useful for privacy and security minded folks.
Just like other public systems, you become the product.
Also, don’t put words in my mouth, and take your condescending attitude and stuff it where the sun don’t shine.
Well telegram is already profitable with showing minimal ad, and no user data selling. You just can’t make up points that going for IPO will make them less secure, why so much rush? Just wait and watch what happens.
“eyes on going public”
Well, there’s the death knell. Not that it was awesome to begin with, just a stepping stone to get people away from WhatsApp.
Come on Signal, SimpleX, XMPP!
I struggle to understand why XMPP isn’t the de facto messaging standard around the world, I was using it on my first Android phone in 2009, 15 years ago - and was able to seamlessly message people on computers even then. Granted it was hell on battery back then.
One reason Telegram is doing so well is that its clients are just so DAMN good and feature rich.
Yep.
It’s straightforward, just works, on every device. Like messengers did years ago.
Easy to login to a new device and instantly start messaging there, with history - just need a current device to verify you.
It’s why I use it. I’d happily use it for friends and family, if I could get them on board. At least it’s not WhatsApp, or something from Google that will die sometime soon.
I’m very lucky that all my friends adopted it - it was one of the few clients that everyone knew of (we are distributed across a lot of countries now; US, UK, France, Brazil mainly).
When I’m forced back to WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger or iMessage I feel like a race driver being told to ride a bicycle. Telegram’s feature set isn’t just the fullest, it’s also revealed in the best UX, where it somehow manages to be fully decked out but not seem bloaty.
It got pretty bloated in recent years with reactions and animated stickers to name a few
Myeah, I agree that they’ve added quite a lot of features. But I do think they’re very well hidden, while remaining discoverable. You can use them if you like; if not they don’t get in the way. YMMV of course.
The plus point is, telegrams client is open source, so you can always make a client which is less bloated (I am sure there are plenty already in the market).
They already kinda went public with a crypto token scam.
hows that scam lmao
Better question is, how is it not a scam? Lmao
the thing is, Ive been using its crypto features for freelancing and everything went smoothly till date (been using it for 1 year). If you term crypto in general is scam, thats different thing
Personally with XMPP, I think it’s right now because of the lack of decent looking clients (especially on iOS), as well as a lot of the same friction that people have suffered with mastodon.
Also, Signal is built towards a completely different audience that places privacy first over modern messaging features (things like API’s, sending messages through voice assistants, etc.). And for SimpleX, I’m not really sure if sharing a QR code/link with someone else is the best route to go in UX just to message a friend
Agreed on all points.
I really, really appreciate what Signal is doing, and used it for a while, had some success converting people, then they dropped SMS support. That killed any ability to get more converts, and existing users left. I keep it around as a fallback for exactly 2 people.
The UI part of this problem is massive, especially initial setup. It’s why SMS is still primary in the US - people can’t be bothered. It’s so frustrating.
It’s also why I’m looking to host my own, with SimpleX in the lead (for now). Since I’ll manage it, I can mitigate that setup/management pain somewhat (at least for family and close friends). Perhaps that’s the way to get the onto something else. I’m also hoping SimpleX will continue to improve the user experience, especially around multiple devices.
I’m still considering messengers, and it’ll be probably end of the year before I do anything.
I want a Saved Messages chat with a Planned Messages function in a messenger. AFAIK XMPP doesn’t have that. I have it installed and no one I know uses it, but I’m not going to recommend an app that I’m not using because it is insufficient atm.
No XMPP app has that? I’m kind of surprised. I don’t pay a lot of attention to XMPP apps, though I’ve used them here and there.
Biggest use I find for them today is to integrate with tools like MAXXS, which is OK for some automation with mobile devices. Sort of as a backbone comm channel.
I kind of blame myself - as I said, I was using it years ago, but I never evangelized it with friends/family - I’m not a salesman, and my patience is non-existent for people who are stubborn ostriches.
Xmpp was designed for ease of federation and simplicity in implementation. Most messaging apps these days are designed, or at least say they are designed, with privacy first. There probably are plugins for xmpp to allow for e2e encryption and contact list and metadata privacy from server admins but that depends on the server and will probably not be as secure as signal. Just as signal can be federated but it’s complex and not really worth it.
There’s a tradeoff between privacy/security and federation/decentralization and most people value privacy and security more.
Your condescending tone would be fine if you knew what you were talking about.
XMPP was designed when encrypting metadata wasn’t considered that important (like with mail), and E2EE for actual messages between users was done via PGP or OTR, so didn’t require any support in the protocol itself.
You should have read at least something about XMPP first, no? Then you’d know something without “probably”.
First, honest E2EE for messages themselves never requires server support, that’s the whole point of it. As I’ve said before, for that one can use PGP functionality in most normal clients if that’s enough, one can use OTR, but it’s still not fit for usage with multiple devices simultaneously.
Second, XMPP has OMEMO which is basically everything good about security from Signal, just for XMPP. That’s what we usually use today with XMPP, making your comment wrong.
I’d say most people here value privacy and security more,and average users value convenience with no understanding of the tradeoff.
And that’s our challenge.
Xmpp is p2p right? So it doesn’t have cloud features like synced message history no?
No, it’s federated. Like Lemmy. But without ActivityPub, of course, it didn’t exist.
But Diaspora instances usually had XMPP for private messages IIRC.
I suspect that normies subconsciously want all popular messaging services to be insecure.
Humans are often self-confident in a bad way about imagined chaos.
So if a service in insecure, then some day (as that dreaming normie thinks) they might “come to darkweb” and find “a hacker” to help them against something bad. After all, that’s how movies show life.
And if a service is secure, then, that normie thinks, it’s either a scam or at least something that movies have not prepared them for. Same with encrypting mail.
Hahah, you have a point, even if it’s a bit hyperbolic.
Oh boy, so true.
I thought that it was when I was 16. Now I’m sure that’s the truth by the way they react when you don’t even try to persuade them to use something, just evaluate things fairly.
Like Microsoft, EA, facebook, twitter, reddit right? With the amount of corporate death nerds within their bubble have been predicting, there would be no evil corporations. and yet, here we are.
Stop overestimating when your intuition tells you what’s a death knell.
People can use Signal, XMPP, Telegram and also whatsapp depending on their privacy requirements. Modern smartphones are capable like that.
I used to use scp to transfer files off of remote servers 20 years ago. You don’t see me recommending it every time dropbox gets mentioned. Cool down with self-agrandizing bs.
What self-aggrandizing? Where is this about me?
Going public makes companies beholden to stock valuations, not what the users want. Which means Telegram will be even less useful for privacy and security minded folks.
Just like other public systems, you become the product.
Also, don’t put words in my mouth, and take your condescending attitude and stuff it where the sun don’t shine.
Show some integrity.
Well telegram is already profitable with showing minimal ad, and no user data selling. You just can’t make up points that going for IPO will make them less secure, why so much rush? Just wait and watch what happens.